Eccezionale scoperta! E' giunto il momento di retrodatare la storia d'Europa?...

[Helios]

In questa sede ed altrove si discute del valore di eventuali 'substrati preindoeuropei' nell'ambito della Tradizione Mediterranea, ed ecco che una quaestio similare si pone ora per l'area mitteleuropea. Beninteso, tutte cose già 'fiutate' in precedenza, ma notizie come la seguente, corroborata dallo sconforto che sicuramente attanaglierà gli 'studiosi' di mezzo mondo, confortano ulteriormente una simile prospettiva.

------------------------------

Dall'Indipendent:
Citazione:
Found: Europe's oldest civilisation
By David Keys, Archaeology Correspondent
11 June 2005


Archaeologists have discovered Europe's oldest civilisation, a network of dozens of temples, 2,000 years older than Stonehenge and the Pyramids.

More than 150 gigantic monuments have been located beneath the fields and cities of modern-day Germany, Austria and Slovakia. They were built 7,000 years ago, between 4800BC and 4600BC. Their discovery, revealed today by The Independent, will revolutionise the study of prehistoric Europe, where an appetite for monumental architecture was thought to have developed later than in Mesopotamia and Egypt.

In all, more than 150 temples have been identified. Constructed of earth and wood, they had ramparts and palisades that stretched for up to half a mile. They were built by a religious people who lived in communal longhouses up to 50 metres long, grouped around substantial villages. Evidence suggests their economy was based on cattle, sheep, goat and pig farming.

Their civilisation seems to have died out after about 200 years and the recent archaeological discoveries are so new that the temple building culture does not even have a name yet.

Excavations have been taking place over the past few years - and have triggered a re-evaluation of similar, though hitherto mostly undated, complexes identified from aerial photographs throughout central Europe.

Archaeologists are now beginning to suspect that hundreds of these very early monumental religious centres, each up to 150 metres across, were constructed across a 400-mile swath of land in what is now Austria, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and eastern Germany.

The most complex excavated so far - located inside the city of Dresden - consisted of an apparently sacred internal space surrounded by two palisades, three earthen banks and four ditches.

The monuments seem to be a phenomenon associated exclusively with a period of consolidation and growth that followed the initial establishment of farming cultures in the centre of the continent.

It is possible that the newly revealed early Neolithic monument phenomenon was the consequence of an increase in the size of - and competition between - emerging Neolithic tribal or pan-tribal groups, arguably Europe's earliest mini-states.

After a relatively brief period - perhaps just one or two hundred years - either the need or the socio-political ability to build them disappeared, and monuments of this scale were not built again until the Middle Bronze Age, 3,000 years later. Why this monumental culture collapsed is a mystery.

The archaeological investigation into these vast Stone Age temples over the past three years has also revealed several other mysteries. First, each complex was only used for a few generations - perhaps 100 years maximum. Second, the central sacred area was nearly always the same size, about a third of a hectare. Third, each circular enclosure ditch - irrespective of diameter - involved the removal of the same volume of earth. In other words, the builders reduced the depth and/or width of each ditch in inverse proportion to its diameter, so as to always keep volume (and thus time spent) constant .

Archaeologists are speculating that this may have been in order to allow each earthwork to be dug by a set number of special status workers in a set number of days - perhaps to satisfy the ritual requirements of some sort of religious calendar.

The multiple bank, ditch and palisade systems "protecting" the inner space seem not to have been built for defensive purposes - and were instead probably designed to prevent ordinary tribespeople from seeing the sacred and presumably secret rituals which were performed in the "inner sanctum" .

The investigation so far suggests that each religious complex was ritually decommissioned at the end of its life, with the ditches, each of which had been dug successively, being deliberately filled in.

"Our excavations have revealed the degree of monumental vision and sophistication used by these early farming communities to create Europe's first truly large scale earthwork complexes," said the senior archaeologist, Harald Staeuble of the Saxony state government's heritage department, who has been directing the archaeological investigations. Scientific investigations into the recently excavated material are taking place in Dresden.

The people who built the huge circular temples were the descendants of migrants who arrived many centuries earlier from the Danube plain in what is now northern Serbia and Hungary. The temple-builders were pastoralists, controlling large herds of cattle, sheep and goats as well as pigs. They made tools of stone, bone and wood, and small ceramic statues of humans and animals. They manufactured substantial amounts of geometrically decorated pottery, and they lived in large longhouses in substantial villages.

One village complex and temple at Aythra, near Leipzig, covers an area of 25 hectares. Two hundred longhouses have been found there. The population would have been up to 300 people living in a highly organised settlement of 15 to 20 very large communal buildings.

--------------------------------

How 7,000-year-old temples reveal the elaborate culture of Europe
By Cahal Milmo
11 June 2005


The construction of the temples of Nickern, on the site that is now Dresden, puts the first civilisations of Europe at the forefront of early human endeavour to master nature.

Some two millennia before the first stones were laid for the pyramids of Egypt, humanity's preoccupation, from the forests of Germany to the plains of Pakistan, was _ both literally and figuratively _ to place roots in the soil.

Archaeological evidence suggests that by the fifth millennium BC, tribes in regions such as Baluchistan, on the site known as Mehrgarh, in the north-western corner of the Indian sub-continent, and the Samarrans in Mesopotamia were establishing farms and permanent communities.

In Egypt, crops such as flax, cotton and barley were being grown from about 5000BC in villages where herds of sheep and goats were also kept. The discovery of early traces of agriculture in New Guinea from about the same time indicate that across the globe humans were starting to sculpt their landscape.

Dr John Robertson, a Washington University-based anthropologist, said: "There is much of this period that we still don't understand, but humanity was beyond the stage of hunting down prey and smearing itself with the entrails.

"Across the world, man was beginning to see his surroundings as something that could be organised or curtailed _ to be farmed. That is a profound change and it did not displace an innate sense of reverence for nature.

"The first civilisations therefore dedicated effort, more often than not huge, into reflecting that in monumental structures."

It is this impetus for a sacred space, such as the early temples dating from this time in Mesopotamia, that appears to be behind the vast structures uncovered in central Europe.

Archaeologists have struggled to pinpoint and outline the development of the first farming communities, because the evidence that they left behind is scanty at best. But the picture that is often drawn of the European context is that an increasingly sophisticated farming culture, with its base in Mesopotamia, roughly the area occupied by present-day Iraq and Syria, was radiating outwards across the Middle East towards the outer reaches of Europe.

On the Orkney islands, complex stone structures such as the Knap of Howar, the earliest standing dwellings to be found in north-west Europe, date from about 3500BC.

Stone, however, is durable and tends to stay in place. By contrast, it has been difficult for archaeologists to establish the degree of sophistication of the civilisation that built the Nickern temples _ more than a millennium before the Orkney structures _ using timber and earth.

Andrew Sherratt, professor of archaeology at the University of Oxford, said: "The problem has been that all that is often left of these structures are post-holes. It is only when we begin to reconstruct them that we understand the elaborate nature of the culture.

"What appears to have been discovered in Germany is something which might have astonished, for example, Britons, who were only just beginning to farm in this period. But to the Mesopotamians, it would have been the grounds for a rather patronising pat on the back."

While the precise nature of the Nickern round buildings remains a mystery, evidence suggests their owners were sophisticated.

In the early Egyptian village of al-Fayyum, dead domesticated animals were wrapped in linen and buried close to their community. Later evidence from Ancient Egypt offers in insight into the complexity of beliefs that accompanied this practice.

In Nickern, the people who were building their own grand places of worship manufactured ceramic statues of humans and animals _ as did the inhabitants of Mehrgarh in Baluchistan _ although there is as yet little evidence of the beliefs that drove this practice.



fonti:

http://news.independent.co.uk/europe...p?story=645976

[Helios]

http://www.corriere.it/ultima_ora/ag...3E9EA1AE940%7D

11 giu 07:41
Archeologia: scoperti in Germania edifici e templi della civilta' piu' antica d'Europa
LONDRA - Oltre 150 templi, risalenti al 4800-4600 a.C. e vestigia risalenti a 7000 anni fa. Sono stati scoperti dagli archeologi in una zona ampia oltre 600 chilometri, tra Germania, Repubblica Ceca, Slovacchia e Austria. Lo scrive il quotidiano britannico The Indipendent. Si tratterebbe della piu' antica civilta' europea. Sono stati trovati edifici piu' grandi delle piramidi, antecedenti a queste di circa 200 anni. Secondo gli esperti, i templi - costruiti in legno e terra - sono stati innalzati da popolazioni nomadi molto religiose, arrivate dal Danubio. Nel sottosuolo di Dresda e' stato scoperto un tempio di 150 metri di diametro, circondato da quattro fossati, e statuine raffiguranti animali e altri personaggi. (Agr)

[Mjollnir]

Ved. anche

http://www.politicaonline.net/forum/...hreadid=102231

In effetti già Renfrew non aveva teorizzato la faglia cronologica ?

Molte cose sono probabilmente da retrodatare, sia indoeuropee che non... anzi, a dirla tutta, si dovrebbe cominciare col "comparsa" dell'uomo e gli schemi evoluzionistici.

[Mjollnir]

>> http://www.isolabianca.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1005 <<

[Der Wehrwolf]

http://www.politicaonline.net/forum/...hreadid=172915

Alcuni edifici erano più grandi delle piramidi.
Ma degli autori non si sa nulla
Scoperti resti della più antica civiltà europea
Rinvenute tracce di oltre 150 templi in legno costruiti 7000 anni fa in una zona compresa tra Germania, Austria e Repubblica Ceca

FRANCOFORTE (GERMANIA) - Avevano creato templi più grandi delle piramidi prima ancora che i faraoni facessero erigere le loro tombe sulle sabbie dell'Egitto. Ma di loro non era rimasta alcuna traccia. Fino ad ora.
LA SCOPERTA - Vestigia della più antica civiltà europea - risalente a circa 7000 anni fa - sono infatti state scoperte recentemente dagli archeologi, a quanto scrive il quotidiano britannico "The Independent". Le tracce di oltre 150 templi, edificati tra il 4800 e il 4600 avanti Cristo, sono state localizzate in una zona lunga oltre 640 chilometri, coprendo ciò che ai nostri giorni costituisce la Germania, la Repubblica ceca, la Slovacchia e l’Austria. Tali imponenti edifici sarebbero stati costruiti circa 2000 anni prima delle piramidi d’Egitto e del centro megalitico di Stonhenge, nel sud dell’Inghilterra.
RIVOLUZIONE - Tali scoperte rivoluzioneranno lo studio dell’Europa preistorica, dal momento che si riteneva finora che l’architettura monumentale si fosse sviluppata, più tardi, nel Medio Oriente, in Mesopotamia e in Egitto. L’insieme dei templi - in legno e in terra - sono stati realizzati da un popolo profondamente religioso, discendente di nomadi giunti dalla piana del Danubio, la cui economia si sarebbe basata sull’allevamento del bestiame. Di questo popolo misterioso ci sarebbero tracce per un periodo di circa 200 anni, dopo di che sembrerebbe scomparso nel nulla.
IL TEMPIO DI DRESDA - Una delle scoperte più notevoli è stata fatta nel sottosuolo della città di Dresda, dove gli archeologi hanno portato alla luce i resti di un tempio di 150 metri di diametro, circondato da quattro fossati. Sono stati anche trovati utensili in legno, oltre a statuine rappresentanti personaggi o animali. «Le nostre ricerche hanno permesso di rivelare il grado di magnificenza e di sofisticatezza alle quali sono giunte le comunità agricole d’Europa», ha detto Harald Staeuble, capo del dipartimento del patrimonio della Bassa Sassonia. Per gli archeologi, tali edifici sono stati costruiti e "usati" per 2-3 secoli.Non è ancora chiaro per quale motivo se ne sia cessata la costruzione. Solo 3000 anni dopo - durante l’età del bronzo - si sarebbe ripreso a costruire in questa zona d’Europa.
11 giugno 2005

[Frumentarius]

Originally posted by Der Wehrwolf
[B]http://www.politicaonline.net/forum/...hreadid=172915

Alcuni edifici erano più grandi delle piramidi.
Ma degli autori non si sa nulla..

E tu da questo hai dedotto che :

"Questo dimostra che già più di 7.000 anni fa i Popoli centro-europei erano molto più evoluti di quelli mediterranei... "

Complimenti ...

Peccato che forse tu non sappia, o non voglia sapere, che i tuoi 'amati' Latini ed Italici vengano proprio da quelle zone!!

Inutile dire che i 'Germani' non hanno messo piede in Germania meridionale se non intorno al III-II Secolo avanti Cristo, quindi 4500 anni dopo!!

[Syntax error System]

ma é confermato tutto ció oppure é solo la solita fuffata?

[Helios]

Independent, RAI, CorSera...

Non per seguire il mainstream, ma credo sia confermato.

[Frumentarius]

Originally posted by Mjollnir
Ved. anche

http://www.politicaonline.net/forum/...hreadid=102231

In effetti già Renfrew non aveva teorizzato la faglia cronologica ?

Molte cose sono probabilmente da retrodatare, sia indoeuropee che non... anzi, a dirla tutta, si dovrebbe cominciare col "comparsa" dell'uomo e gli schemi evoluzionistici.

Potresti darmi dei riferimenti di questa teorizzazione di Renfrew?

Certo queste scoperte minano finalmente anche alcuni fondamentali 'errori' da luogo comune :

1) Il mito del 'buon selvaggio' che si rifiuta di tagliare alberi e costruire templi, e che utilizza solo 'luoghi all'aperto' a differenza delle cattivissime civiltà monumentali.

2) Costruzioni cosi' colossali e l'esistenza di Città ( ricordo che in Marocco ( lo ricordo anche a 'lupomannaro'.. ) è stata trovata una CITTA' di 13 mila anni fa... in Turchia invece una del 6000 a.C.) denotano un evidente surplus di produzione e quindi un impiego estremamente sviluppato di manodopera, e quindi una militarizzazione, che cozza con la teoria Gimbutiana dei Neolitici pacifici matriarcali.

3) Il sostrato precedente agli sconvolgimenti del 3000-2000 a.C. era molto più sviluppato, MOLTO DI PIU', di quello che si pensava... cosa impedisce, come giustamente hai affermato, che siano esistite altre Civiltà ancora più evolute ed antiche andando ancora più indietro??

Si potrebbe riscrivere la storia dell'Uomo... bene bene... potrebbe non essere un caso che la TERRA restituisca in certi momenti particolari i suoi tesori....


Amicus Plato, sed Magna Amica Veritas.

Valete Bene!

[Mjollnir]

Per favore, cerchiamo di evitare toni da curva calcistica...